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Interview with Prof. Sen, (Translation of Mr. Nagato's remarks): The first time we have learned your work was from the paper in the journal "Sekai", translated by Prof. Tsuru in 1994. We were interested in your work since then. Since we are working towards establishing worker's cooperative, we are particularly interested in humanisation of work, reproduction of cooperative structure of work in relation to the recreation of welfare society. Thus we are happy to talk to you and share your thought. (Prof. Sen): I am also happy to have a chance of meeting you. The cooperative movement is a very important part of world heritage. I am aware that it is a very powerful force in Japan. It has been so historically, and it is so today. I am delighted to have this opportunity of talking to talk to all of you, Mr. Nagato, Mr. Kanno, and also Professor Nakagawa. (Translation of Mr. Nagato's comment): As you may have known that Japan has increased the number of unemployment, and there are seriously increasing number of homeless people in Japan. We are very much concerned about this phenomena, and we are trying to establish a society without unemployment. By enhancing workers' autonomy and citizens' empowerment, we would like to see how does workers and citizens become as a centre of society, and we would like to learn how Economics might help establishing it. As we have seen, the tyranny of market, particularly in Japan, the situation of the aftermath of the burst of bubble economy and long term consequence of it is very significant. We are very much concerned about these phenomena. (Prof. Sen): I think it is absolutely right to concern the growing of unemployment, because Japan has had a creditable record, relatively speaking, until recently the unemployment rate was quite low. And even now, it should be mentioned the level of unemployment is much lower than that in Europe. Nevertheless, the rise of unemployment, relatively speaking compared with the past in Japan, is a matter of grave concern. And it is appropriate that Japanese Worker's cooperative union is in concern with it. If one thinks about the name, apart from it signifies that Japanese which is of course an important national tradition, two particularly important words are 'workers' and 'cooperative'. The solidarity of workers lies in being available for work, and being able to get work. And 'cooperative' is another significant principle, which is one of being able to work in a way that is not essentially one of competition between one and other, but one of cooperation between one and the other. It is quite right that Japanese workers' cooperative union should value work therefore be concerned about unemployment, and also very right to think of solutions through means which cooperative methods tend to suggest. (Translation from Mr. Nagato): We all know that in Japan as well as in the world, the hope for citizens was to establish full employment society. But what we have done as a method to achieve that goal was to put pressure on government, capitalists, and managers to achieve the goal. There was no substantial, spontaneous movement from workers. Particularly in case of Japan, it was obvious that when the earthquake hit Kobe in 1995, the community was fragmented and desperate, but at the same time, government and local authority was not positive to help to re-establish the community through public methods. And firms were also not taking responsibility for those who were influenced by the shock of earthquake. So we strongly feel that workers themselves must have certain ability or capability to manage its activities and its own enterprise. (Prof. Sen): I agree entirely about the force of that point, the rationale of that approach. Certainly there are duties and obligations of various kinds that can be attributed to different parts of the society. Certainly the government has a role in creating the environment, and making policies such as macroeconomic policies, aggregate economic policies, that is as well as micro policies dealing with regulations, governing firms and companies to enhance employment rather than cartel. Similarly, private sectors and entrepreneurs have a strong obligation to pay attention to employment aspect. These are of course a part of traditional Japanese economic values, and indeed understood to be particularly treasured in Japanese society in the past. And you need to remember that the heritage and history is quite strong. Yet, it cannot only be the work of the government and the private sector because workers themselves have to take a lot of responsibility for it as well as those connected withthe worker's organisations, the Trade Union nobles, and organisations like Japanese Worker's Cooperative Union which is concerned with a particular way of finding employment, and making creative interaction possible between workers on the one side and the rest of the economy on the other. So I think in this sense that (to recognise that) there are different responsibility of different sections of the population is important. It is also very important to recognise that these have to be done not independently of each other, but in some ways through either explicit or passive understanding each other, so that there could be more collaborative work between Workers' Union, Workers' cooperatives, employers and businesses, as well as the government. I think nothing is as important as seeing all this in cooperative mode for the economy as a whole as something where different parts of society work together in order to bring the expansion of employment. #Back to the head of this page (Translation from Mr. Nagato): The concept of workers cooperative is not yet established as an institution in Japan. We are lobbying to relevant political powers, and we are trying to establish a law for workers cooperative. We expect that the law will be passed within one or two years. But in this proposed bill, the concept of work and cooperative is mixed as 'work only for cooperative work' which is more or less excluding the concept of employment work. So the question we would like to ask you that 'would this concept of "work for cooperative work" be recognised by society, and settled in the society'. How do you see the power of this concept. (Prof. Sen): I would like to draw three things from that. First is that when one thinks the different ways of organising the economy, the idea of doing it through cooperative is a very attractive one as an additional arrangement to other arrangements that already exist. I think it will be a great mistake that cooperative can substitute all the standard employment-business relations. That will be hopelessly ambitious task, and it will be counterproductive. One has to think of it mainly as supplementary, although it will enrich the economy, rich in the sense that it will be able to do things which cannot be done by standard wage-employment arrangement, or standard-profit making bourgeois arrangement. So as a supplement it is very valuable. I think the second point I would like to make is though I recognise that the workers cooperative as a particular legal institutional form is yet waiting formal recognition in Japan, there is a history in Japanese economic and social relations in which cooperation played a very big part. Indeed to some extent, even in the standard business enterprises, there have always been an element of cooperation on which business successors to very extent draw. I recognise that some people evaluate twenty years ago, a lot of people wrote a great deal about it, varying from Ron Dore, Michio Morishima, Masahiko Aoki, and in the context of analogy with Samurai culture, Eiko Ikegami. All wrote about those things. Some people don't think that this may be too special view of Japan, and maybe there are some element of romanticism in it. It is possible. But there is still an element of truth that there were certain cooperative principles which have been more important in the Japanese economy than in standard, certainly, Anglo-American economic arrangement and perhaps the other European arrangements. So even though the cooperative organisations are new as such as a legal entity, there is a history and there is a tradition in Japan which is very important to recognise, I think. And the third I want to make is that if I look at Japanese economic approach, right from the time of early Meiji and particularly late Meiji period, I think there has been a great deal of emphasis on such matters as building up the basic educational base. Japan is the economy in which the importance of school education for economic expansion was first established. In one way of thinking about it is that it is a focus on education and human resource development or human capital development as some people call it. In another way of looking at it is that it is a way of making a cooperative economic approach that is much more feasible because you cannot have a cooperative approach unless there is a high level of good school education which makes everyone to participate as intelligent human beings, rather than as what happened in early capitalism in Europe where there were bosses on the one side, and workers quite often ignorant, being uneducated and being ordered by managers to do certain things. Again in this respect too, there is a tradition in Japan which inclines it in the direction of cooperative work management. And it is important to bear in mind when one demands the new legal entity in the form of recognition of workers cooperative should proceed fast, it is also important to recognise that it is not a complete break from the past. There is something in Japan's history, tradition and culture on which you can draw. #Back to the head of this page (Translation from Mr. Nagato): I would like to relate to the subject but also to talk about current transformation of Japanese society and workers cooperative. In the past, 'restructuring', which means laying off workers, was done in more or less heavy industry related sector. However, the government now recognises that Japanese society is transforming, and therefore, not only restructuring heavy industries, but creating jobs in soft industry such as environment, telecommunication, information technology and welfare. Particularly, the problem of welfare is considered to be a product of ageing society of Japan. This is where we think that workers cooperative can be very active and effective to contribute. As you may know, Japan has passed the law on elderly care insurance. There are many institutions, NGOs, and Non-Profit Organisations involved in this process of institutionalising the care for elderly. Through NGOs involvement, we think this can be the forum of participation of citizens in community,and also to decentralise the decision making process. By all these means, we believe that the movement will create some kind of base for workers cooperative movement, because of the decentralisation and participation of citizens. Put it furthermore, the reason why we think this is an opportunity for workers cooperative is because until today caring elderly was done by women, 85% of all the workers for care is women, and particularly those who are daughters-in-law, who are conceptualised as cheap labour for domestic work. And this concept of daughters-in-law working for domestic affairs has alienated them from pursuing their career work in the society. These changes for ageing society and for the shift towards public elderly care may help to break from the past to create opportunities for those women who were stuck in home caring elderly people. So I am very surprised and astonished by your comments about looking back the tradition. On the one hand, yes you are right that there was a cooperative tradition in Japan, but on the other hand there is a negative tradition as well. (Prof. Sen): That is absolutely right. When we look at the history, there are always elements of history that we can draw on, and elements of history that we want to overcome and go beyond. And the same is true of Japan. Take a different field all together, the Japanese economic growth and success, right from late-19th and certainly early 20th-century, has been based on one aspect which is particularly great, namely not treating the market as an institution, but to see all other institutions of the state, of the society, of the legal structure, and basically also educational and public facilities. So some ways it could be said that there is a tradition in that. And yet when one considers some of the problems of Japanese economy recently including arrangements of financial transfer and so on, it could be said that there is a need for additional institution. So when we are thinking of that, it is to say, we need the departure from the past, because there are some new institutions needed. The another way of saying it that it is to build upon Japan's past, because Japan has never believed in market economy having a pre-eminent position as what West call it 'lone-ranger' who is doing all work alone. There is always a cooperative institutions. While this particular institution may not be developed, or have not been well developed, it is within Japanese general approach to have multi institutional approach. And the same thing applied in this case too. If you translate this, and I will continue this a little bit more. (Prof. Sen): In the context here, if you take the particular case that you mentioned, namely the old system where young women often daughter-in-laws, maybe looking after the parents-in-laws, you can see four different aspects in it. And they had to be assessed differently in terms of demands of modern Japan. One, these are the two negative aspects, I say, there is a gender inequality here in the sense that women often having a role which is one of subservient to the family, and not having an opportunity of developing their career. That, clearly in the context of modern society, is a negative factor which required to be changed. There is, secondly, a clear indication here about what may be called an 'age priority' whereby all the elder people having much more voice than younger people. So that is rather unfavourable to the independence of young people. That again is something in contemporary Japan may not be acceptable and may need to change. But there is a third element other than gender inequality and age inequality, which is the recognition that helpless people need help. And from that point of view, the fact that voluntarily help came for elderly people from younger people has a basic element of humanity in it, which is extremely important. This is something which Japan in larger scale may wish to preserve. Some people may take a view, I certainly do, that in the Western value system, the idea that people are helpless, somehow they have to find their own ways of supporting themselves, perhaps on past savings, perhaps on relying on some kind of charity, but not really be able to expect help from others in a position to help. That is not done very well, I think, in Europe and America. I think in many ways quite often the life of very elderly people are extremely lonely, often rest very severely on their own, with little participation in the community, and these are very negative factors. And the fact that there is a long tradition in Japan in helping the helpless, is I think very important part. The same thing, on the third aspect now, is a positive aspect, just as gender inequality and age inequality are the negative aspect, the recognition of need to help the helpless is a positive aspect. I think there is a fourth aspect here, mainly the recognition that some of relationship between one human being and another does not operate through the market. It operates through at different terrain. The simplest is, of course, the family. The daughter-in-law looking after the parents-in-law is an example. But if one analyses it, it is a recognition of existing institution, in this case family, which does not operate in the market but operates as additional factor outside it. And the relations are not a wage relations, but often relation of affection, relation of duties and obligation of different kind. Now, a family as an institution for support may weaken undoubtedly because of the problems with gender and age inequality. But nevertheless the idea that there are non-market institutions which are important. It is something which is very big to recognise. And I think even for the cooperative movement is to recognise because when one is thinking about it, it is to think of cooperative as a kind of extended family. It is a social family in this people's relationship with each other is like that in the family of cooperation. So I would say that in the same institution, you see positive aspects, namely the spirit of cooperation and the recognition of need for help, as well as negative element, namely gender inequality and age inequality. One has to be discriminating in using the past for building the future. It is not a question of just rejecting the past nor a question of just sticking to the past. It is a question of discriminating assessment about the past for building the future. #Back to the head of this page (Translation from Mr.Nagato): As we have discussed about the question of how Japanese economy was, and is, and the question of elderly people and caring, to wrap up all these argument, what is the most important thing for the public policy to take care of, with regard to the question of employment and care for elderly people? (Prof. Sen): Since I commented a bit on care for elderly, let me comment particularly on the employment. I think one thing is becoming quite clear, especially from judging from European experience which I have studied more, is that one needs many innovative departures to be able to overcome the enormous problem of unemployment that has grown most of the European economies. It requires on the one side arrangement for employment and work which are not as rigidly organised as some of the standard employment arrangements have been. Quite often that the demand of what has come from employers side that the Union should be more flexible. But there is also a demand on the other side that employees themselves should be able to think of much different arrangement, not just a standard system of payments and work and so forth. Now that requires flexibility at both ends. And this is extremely important, I would say, that it is the first important issue in dealing with employment. For that, cooperative movements have particular role to play because it brings in different types of workers organisations. In so far as traditional form of capitalist firms have been unable to provide enough arrangement for employment, the cooperative has a role in diversifying the employment arrangement in expanding employment. That's one thing. Secondly, there is no question that employment that can be offered as many hard-headed economists point out depends on such thing as wage rate. Sometime this point is overemphasised, but there is an element of truth in that. What again needs is some flexibility in terms of rates of payment, rates of reward. That is very difficult to do when one is dealing with situation when workers on the one side and employers on the other are meeting in a situation of confrontation, because you need much more understanding of demands of flexible economic arrangement for employment to expand. And there again cooperatives by breaking down the rigid division and confrontational atmosphere between workers and employer could have a role. Thirdly, if one thinks about the elderly people, we have been talking earlier about the care of elderly or elderly as consumers. Now that is of course very important. There are two other aspects of economy of ageing population that is what considering. One is that many of the people, not only live longer, but also live longer in good health. I haven't seen any study of Japan on that, but I have seen studies made by the National Academy of Sciences in America. It appears not only has life expectancy increased in America, but also the incidents of disability connected to old age is also gone down. So the possible flexibility in continuing to do work of other kinds, not standard kinds, not include very much physical strength, but which requires work of momental kind which can be done by elderly people more easily have become important. This is important for both earning income and also makingthe lives of elderly people more interesting for those who actually want to continue to work. So we have to think of the elderly not only as consumers but also as producers. That is also important point where again cooperative can also provide a flexibility. The second thing connected other than the consumer and producer role, is the fact that any kind of ageing population requires a social thinking at very wide level. You think about pension arrangements of ageing population, you think about health care arrangement of ageing population, you have to think about epidemiological problems, you have to think about the environmental connections. All these requires much greater requirements for social dialogue and social awareness of important practical, political and individual demand. I think cooperative movement have in the past in Europe, certainly, and I expect in Japan too, has played a part bringing into a public domain a lot of things for discussion, for debate, and broadening horizon of social dialogue. I think there again is a particular role of cooperatives. That makes particularly important both in dealing with the issue of unemployment as well as the issue of elderly, seen as workers, producers as well as citizens of the society. I think it is very important that elderly people have opportunity to express their point of view, just as young people having ability to express their point of view is important, as women having ability to express their point of view is important. I think that society consists of a kind of collaboration between different part, men and women, elderly and young, those in work and those out of work, those in working age and those beyond working age and those beyond working age still able to work. So these point of view need expression. I think cooperative movements have an advantage of not just being concerned only with individual cooperative union unit, but also with a level of cooperation in the economy in general. That is a bigger and grander role which I think workers cooperative union may well play. I think it will be very creative role from which I believe Europe and America also have something to learn, because the cooperative movements are very old in Europe, but still can be expanded much more. This hasn't been the case yet. |